Blog Post #2 (due FRIDAY): two posts
1) post a discussion question that addresses one of the psychoanalytic readings
AND Alice (anything from ch. 1-4). That means ONE question that attempts to
apply psychoanalytic theory (Freud, Bettelheim, one of the Dreams authors) to the story.
2) respond to someone else’s discussion question (agree, disagree, offer a different piece of evidence, and explain yourself)
**IF YOU POST INCORRECTLY, I WILL NOT COUNT YOUR WORK. DO NOT START A NEW POST; REPLY TO THIS ONE.
1. How does Alice's confidence in her intellectual/academic knowledge affects how she navigates through her fantasy?
ReplyDeleteAlice’s intellectual knowledge helps her to navigate in her fantasy. When she is falling down the rabbit hole, she uses her intellectual knowledge of science in order to try to determine how far she has fallen and where on the earth she will come out. Alice is using her intellectual ability to displace the fear she experiences while falling down the hole. When she is in her fantasy, she comes across the “Drink Me” bottle. Her ego is in control because she checks the bottle for poison before drinking it as she has learned from stories. In these moments, her ego, that part of our psyche that compromises between our desires/fears and morality, is in control. Overall, Alice uses her intellectual knowledge to displace her fears.
DeleteI believe Alice's knowledge is her way of avoiding loneliness. As we discussed in class, Alice seems to be neglected by her parents, explaining her constant need to please others. This is shown through her fear of others leaving her, such as the mouse. She didn't want the mouse to leave her, therefore, she was willing to stop talking about her beloved pet and only companion in life in order for the mouse to stay with her. In reality, she wants to be independent and grow up as soon as possible because she idolizes maturity. However, I believe her fantasies are a form of resistance to growing up. While Alice may think she wants to mature quickly, her ego might possibly still have a strong connection with her id. Therefore, her fantasies may be a form of resistance to growing up, even though Alice thinks she wants to. Professor Gillman states how dreams are used by patients to "ward off awareness of unpleasant mental content". Alice's fantasies can be interpreted as her mind's resistance to her superego's desire to mature. Therefore, her knowledge isn't helping Alice navigate herself through her fantasies, her fear of loneliness is the driving factor for Alice.
DeleteI think it is obvious that Alice uses her *supposed* (however, we obviously cannot assume an eight year old girl will have an abundance of academic or intellectual knowledge, especially of the kind that might aid her in such an odd situation) to help herself navigate through the world because it is her only choice to. She needs to ground herself to understand her surroundings, and since she finds herself in a fantastical realm, she uses real world terms instead of fantastical terms. In the first chapter, Alice remarks specifically, after having fallen down the rabbit hole, " 'Let me see, that would be four thousand miles down, I think– ... but then I wonder what Latitude or Longitude I've got to?' (Alice had not the slightest idea what Latitude was, or Longitude either, but she thought they were nice grand words to say.)" (pg. 3) This relates directly to Bettelheims' "A Child's Need for Magic." Simply put, Alice's "academic knowledge" directly represents her "magic," her fantasy. Were she in a place in actual reality, not a fantasy land, she might spurt out fantastical words to understand where she is. However, since she finds herself in a fantastical situation after falling down the rabbit hole, the formula is flipped, and she instead offers herself the closest thing to *actual* facts and phrases adults would use in order to understand her surroundings. Just as children make up fantasies to understand the overwhelming *real* world, she makes up (wrong, in this case, but it is the thought that counts in her case!) ideas that *sound* normal in an attempt to ground herself.
DeleteIt is completely easy to see that Alice's ego is having a struggle between which side to lean towards, the ID or the Superego. Her ID is what simply drives/pushes her to follow the rabbit down the hole, drink the potion and eat the cake. On the other hand, her Superego pulls her back by making her think about the consequences of possibly drinking the potion and eating the cake. Her ego at the stage is in constant conflict with appealing to the ID as well as appealing to the Superego. I believe that because there is no balance (egos job to create balance) she gets lost within her self (the dream) which is why we get her saying she doesnt understand what latitude or longitude is cause she has lost her sense of direction. Thus, because of this loss, just as Bettleheim states in "A Child's Need for Magic" the child uses their fantasy to help make a bridge between ID and Superego which will allow for an equal balance.
DeleteAlice's confidence in intellectual and academic knowledge helps her navigate through her fantasy. Having these core facts of knowledge help Alice deal with these fantastical situations occurring. Her scientific knowledge helps create a real understanding to the very unreal experience. Her confidence also helps with her loneliness. She is able to showcase her knowledge as if she were demonstrating it to an authoritative figure, when in reality she is alone. This is possibly a struggle that Alice experiences at home; not having any attention from an authoritative figure to show off her intellect to. As she falls down the rabbit hole, she starts stating facts about where she might be, however, "this was not a very good opportunity for showing off her knowledge, as there was no one to listen to her" (2). Alice's knowledge helps keep her grounded to the reality of her fantasy, as well as giving her the confidence that she may not experience at home with other people around.
DeleteIn Eisnitz, The Perspective of the Self Representation in Dreams he argues that dreams “[offer] clear views of the self and of others, for the most part it presents them in distorted or disguised form” (69). How does the character of Mabel represent Alice’s fears about herself?
ReplyDeleteWithin the book, Alice is quick to develop an interest to the white rabbit just with the sight of it. This quick child-like attraction to a strange object can be explained by the id overpowering the ego. Is this a form of regression? If so, what is the significance of the rabbit and how does the rabbit represent Alice's inner fears?
ReplyDeleteI believe it is a form of displacement, not necessarily regression. Unpleasurable circumstances, such as Alice being forced to sit with her sister on the bank, can cause the ego to start to try and displace the discomfort rising within. Because of this discomfort, the ego can sometimes derive those emotions onto "love objects" which "derive those impressions which its perception registers and its intelligence assimilates" (Freud 70). This is what happens with Alice and the white rabbit, as she is feeling abandoned by her sister and derives her discomfort onto the rabbit.
DeleteAs the white rabbit is an archetype of a sort of compass to steer one towards the right direction, I believe the white rabbit parallels to her feet in the way that she wishes to be mothered. In some way I believe that by following this white rabbit she hopes to find some guidance, especially noticeable as no one pays any mind to her suddenly running off. Likewise, this may be a form of regressing into a more innocent state because the white rabbit also has a connotation of purity and youth. Perhaps by following this rabbit, Alice hopes to return to a simpler period in her life.
DeleteAt first, I believe that the White Rabbit, was a form of regression, that Alice was trying to escape the reality of her situation by constructing a new one. However, characterization of the White Rabbit portrays the symptoms of her reality, but guided by Alice's Self, particularly the Id. Alice represents her ego, conforming to the whereabouts of her id, the rabbit. But Alice, the ego, becomes the balanced representation of her Self
DeleteHow does Alice constantly reprimanding herself for crying support Freud's theory that situations of conflict cause a person's ego to seek repudiation of a part of their own id? In other words, how are these two parts of Alice's self represented in her crying problem?
ReplyDeleteI noticed Alice's frequent crying as well, but I think that her rapidly fluctuating emotional responses represent the development of her ego, rather than a denial of her id. Her natural id impulse is to cry when confronted with some sort of conflict, and as a fairly young child she submits to her impulse without thought. By then having a secondary reaction to her initial reaction, Alice displays her young mind beginning to mature. I do not see her reactions as repudiative because she doesn't want to stop crying or deny her emotions. Instead she is able to recover from moments of confusion quickly and carry on with her life- a trait normally developed by our pre-teen years.
Deletei believe when she is crying her ID is not satisfied and her superego is trying to control her ID
DeleteWhy does Alice talk about her cat, Dinah, as a when she is surrounded by animals whose predator is a cat. Is talking about Dinah an example of Alice regressing to more comfortable state in which she can say whatever she is thinking? Or is her ego unable to balance her id and superego in this situation?
ReplyDeleteIn Chapter 6 "The Persective of the Self Representation in Dreams" the article claims that everything in your dream is a symbol of yourself. In other words, everything can repersent your anxieties or desires. Therefore, I think in this case in Alice's fantasy I believe Dinah is just an extension of Alice and how she wants to feel strong. Dinah is a predator, so it can show Alice's desire to be a predator.
DeleteIn Chapter 6 "The Perspective of Self Representation in Dreams" by Eisnitz it is said that the dreamer creates the world around him. The dreamer is able to both be the subject and be the outside viewer to the dream that they are currently in. Would you agree that Alice is taking a more outside view than subject view even though we are still getting the story from her point of view?
DeleteReplying to Nikki's post:
DeleteI believe Alice talks about her cat while talking to the mouse (prey to the cat) because it definitely reminds her of two feelings. The cat reminds her of being comfortably and at ease with her home situation per say but the mouse reminds her of her vulnerability and being 8 years old, not being able to be the dominant figure in a relationship with alice to her parents and alice to her sister. Also, in between the cat and the mouse we have the rabbit. The rabbit definitely symbolizes her need and impatience to go from mouse to cat (vulnernable and passive to dominant and powerful).
I think Dinah can be viewed to represent Alice's needs and desires. Alice has conveyed the idea of isolation in her fantasy. Her desires to be loved or 'wanted' by a parental figure can be seen in the way she talk about Dinah. Alice talks about how she misses Dinah and how great Dinah is. I think translates to how Alice wants other people to see how great she is and her need for attention and to be heard. When Alice introduces Dinah to the mouse, it is a way to establish dominance and make herself known without the need to be vulnerable. Although she does offend the mouse the first time, she proceeds to talk about her cat later on establishing her dominance, and getting the attention she wanted. I don't think she is regressing to a more comfortable state rather, Alice is being respectful of the situation. I don't think her need to discuss her cat are exactly actions fueled by her id, i think her avoiding the conversation with the mouse was her being respectful.
DeleteIn "Denial in Fantasy" Frued argues that in children's fantasies, denial could be present in order to push away reality to not bring discomfort to the ego. In the article Freud explains that children usually use animals in their fantasies to deny their realities. Furthermore, in Alice and her Adventures in Wonderland does the bossy little mouse with power show how Alice is denying the fact that she is just a weak little girl. In reality a mouse or more like a little girl can't be in charge of something.
ReplyDeleteI do think that the mouse represents Alice in this case and it is also a representation of her ID. The mouse in this scene doesn't seem to have power but he actually wants power and attention. Like we discussed in class today Alice has made herself a "parental"/adult figure especially in the beginning when she described her feet and shoes. So when she encounters this mouse, she actually encounters her ID which is why it gets jealous and upset when Alice constantly talks about the cat. So I don't necessarily think that she is denying that she is a weak girl but she is actually struggling to "grow up" and receive more attention and become more powerful.
DeleteThe scene at the end of chapter 3– that which describes the many pairs of parental figures and their offspring departing from the race's awards ceremony ("On various pretexts they all moved off, and Alice was soon left alone." pg. 23)–has a hint of representation of abandonment. From whom, we may not know. However, in this scene, specifically after the Mouse became angered with Alice and ran away, Alice says so herself that she wants the Mouse to return. We discussed in class that the Mouse may represent Alice's superego. However, if it represents her superego, could it potentially *also* represent her mother figure?
ReplyDeleteI think it is definitely possible that the mouse can represent Alice's mother or figure of the like. Freud introduces the idea of substitution that occurs in children's dreams as the psyche replacing a difficult reality with a mental image that symbolizes it. Since the mouse is authoritative while rarely being nurturing and kind, it possible that these could be the same qualities Alice's mother has and are therefore shown through substitution in the fantasy. Moreover, substitution is exemplified in chapter two when she is swimming in the pool of tears and calls for the mouse: "Oh Mouse do you know the way out of this pool? I am very tired of swimming about here, Oh Mouse!" (11). In this scene, Alice experiences rejection from the mouse, a lack of attention that could represent her mother's un-attentive character towards her and lack of guidance that Alice desperately craves in growing up, and also in this situation with the mouse. Just as Alice initially wants the mouse to leave but then begs for its return, hoping for nurture or kindness, Alice's id shows how she craves to go back home where no one will boss her around. As she regrets her gullible actions prompted by curiosity, she also hopes to be guided and taught about life as she says, "When I used to read fairy tales, I fancied that that kind of thing never happened, and now here I am in the middle of one!" (21). Essentially, if the mouse represent's Alice's mother, substitution in the fantasy demonstrates how desperately Alice craves affection from this figure.
DeleteThrough the emphasis on keys being too large or small for the given lock have anything to do with a confusion or loss of identity? Likewise, does her confusion of identity, shown in the scene in which she wonders if she had changed into any of her friends, parallel to Eisnitz's ideas of self representation?
ReplyDeleteIf children need magic in their dreams to help them understand the "outside world" better, then how does the potion and the cake (her being different sizes) help her understand how to cope with reality?
ReplyDeleteAlice's mind uses fantasy to experience different aspects of life such as the smallness of childhood and the largeness of adulthood by impulsively eating two ambiguous substances. Her uncertainty of her role in reality is constantly being formulated which is why her indefinite size brings her to the realization that she will not always be in control of what occurs. When she became small, "her face brightened up at the thought that she was now the right size for going through the little door into that lovely garden" (18). She is then presented with the reality that the will be unable to reach the key. In each stage of life there are hardships, things that act as obstacles, and this shift in size is a representation of Alice attempting to work through certain obstacles she has or may face throughout her life.
DeleteBefore she eats the cake she reads the label "Eat Me", before she drinks the potion she reads the poison "Drink Me" (10), children usually have this reckless attitude toward rules that authority figure give them, authority figures hope that children will then learn a lesson in reality from the times they go against their wishes. Here, Alice learns her first lesson, resisting temptation.
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DeleteI think that the "Eat Me" cake and the "Drink Me" position are symbols for new and unknown experiences, which she fears failing and later facing disappointment of her actions, others expect her to face as she matures. This is evident when she hesitates to drink the potion and states ""No. I'll look first... and see whether it is marked poison or not" for she had read several little stories about children who had got burnt... all because they would not remember the simple rules their friends had taught them" (4). Similarly, Alice demonstrates this fear with the "EAT ME" cake when she contemplated how she should get into the garden, whether to grow larger or become smaller and declares, "I'll get into the garden, and I don't care which happens" (6). Even if she portrays her terror towards these experiences she must face in one instance and in the other she represses her fear, in both situations she obeys the command she is given, meets expectations, in order to cope with the unwanted emotion.
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ReplyDeleteIn Freud's dream/fantasy theory, animals "acquire their pleasurable character through the complete reversal of the real situation" (58). She goes on to describe that in dreams, desires are repressed to keep them out of the conscious mind. Could the authoritative mouse exemplify Alice's desire and crave to be disciplined rather than pampered through displacement as Alice claims she does not like to be ordered?
ReplyDeleteAlice seems to exhibit little to no fear when plopped into a realm of talking animals and body manipulative substances. Is her fearlessness a form of denial/coping mechanism within her own fantasy to reassure herself safety, or is she genuinely not frightened by her discoveries?
ReplyDeleteI think Alice is genuinely not frightened by her discoveries, because she is very young. As all the readings we have had have described, children controlling their fantasies, therefore she is less afraid. When she is growing and looks at her feet she shows how animistic she thinks: "but I must be kind to them,' thought Alice, 'or perhaps they won't walk the way I want to go! Let me see: I'll give them a new pair of boots every Christmas." (12). This animistic thinking shows that she is comfortable with these fantasies.
DeleteI believe that she is not afraid of talking animals because of Freud's theory that animals are symbols for certain figures in the dreamer's life. Therefore, she basically already knows the animals. She created them with the qualities of people who she already knows. This is why she is conversational with the animals. So far, I believe that the mouse represents somebody who is oversensitive, but authoritative; the rabbit is overly concerned with time and is stressed; the dodos are more carefree. Also, the dream can be thought of as an indication of Alice's maturity level. As Ms. Fink explained in class, younger children's dreams are a lot more out there and animistic. This is normal.
DeleteIn"Denial in Fantasy" Freud discusses dreams in the form of denial, saying that children use dreams to turn away from realities, is it possible that Alice's connection with animals be a form of denial, because she doesn't refer to humans in her dream?
ReplyDeleteI think that the idea of animals is a form of denial because she seems to not have a strong relationship with her family. In the beginning we see she is next to her sister and is trying to look at what she is reading yet her sister seems to not be interested in talking to her. Alice never mentions her parents which is also very significant and when she talks about people it is to justify her ignorance by using the excuse of having transformed into someone else, “ I must have changed into Mabel…No, I have made up my mind about it: if I am Mabel, I’ll stay down here! It’ll be no use their putting their head down and saying ‘Come up again, dear!’ I shall only look up and say ‘Who am I, then?’ Tell me first, and then, if I like being that person, I’ll come up: if not, I’ll stay down here till I’m somebody else” (10). Moreover, I believe that because she does not have a great relationship with her family she is seeking support and safety somewhere else and with the animals she finds it. Even though Lory is rude to her and wants to be the leader because she is “older” the rest of the animals seem to look up to her. She even gives them prizes for winning a race similar to how a parent would do if their child behaved. In this case Alice is kind of like the mother figure for these animals. Alice wants and tries to act mature but in reality is not. Alice’s connection with the animals is a way for her to express this maturity she wants to achieve.
DeleteFreud explains that animals play a big role in dreams especially when they are being used to lead a character through a story, does the mouse that Alice meet represent such a character?
ReplyDeleteI think the Mouse represents part of Alice's self, similar to Eisnitz's theory on dreams and Gillman's theory of reversal in dreams as resistance. Alice constantly uses her knowledge to make herself feel bigger, superior, and smarter than she actually is. Similarly, the Mouse is a hyperbolic manifestation of this part of herself, talking in incoherent sentences and confusing Alice. As the Mouse says to Alice ironically, "You insult me by talking such nonsense!" (33). Alice resists understanding this aspect of herself, manifested each time she offends him and he acts overly sensitive. The Mouse mirrors her lack of self awareness, and consequential struggle to overcome this.
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ReplyDeleteGillman states that reversal in dreams is when the dreamer denies, avoids or reverses affects of the conflict they face in the outside world in their dreams. Could Alice's need to show off her knowledge and use impressive words, although she doesn't understand them, be a form of resistance toward a lack of communication she faces with her parents?
Freud states that dreams are a form of our ID and most child like primal desires. Because Alice takes the "eat me" cake, "drink me" potion and the white gloves only to fulfill her wishes at the very moment are they all a form of her ID and if so what are the true desires they are representing?
ReplyDeleteAccording to bettelheim children seek to answer essential questions about themselves through fantastical experience. What do the animals in chapter 3 represent in Alice, and how do they help alice to discover about her own true identity?
ReplyDeleteDowling's psychoanalytic theory argues that dreams (in both children and adults) are reconstruction of traumatic events; Dreams are an attempt by the ego to process difficult moments of helplessness. Similarly, Alice constantly encounters food and drinks that change her size, yet she is never satisfied with her growing or shrinking. How could the food represent a traumatic moment of helplessness, and how would eating and drinking it symbolize her overcoming the helplessness?
ReplyDeleteAccording to Eisnitz, dreams are depicted as the representation of Self, particularly different parts of a dream correspond to different forms of ego. So if this is the case in Alice's Dreams in Wonderland, what would the Mouse and Rabbit represent as a form of her Self?
ReplyDeleteIn Eisnitz's studies, he believes that body parts in dreams become representation of one self, also known as body ego. When examining Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, how would the growing and shrinking of Alice's body be related to the body ego theory?
ReplyDeleteDowling proposed that dreams are methods to reconstruct traumatic events. Could all of the growing and shrinking, lack of time, Alice's maternity and her moments of immaturity indicate that she had a moment when she struggled with identity and her age?
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